Herring is a race horse!
September 10, 2006
One question out to all believers. What would it take for you to stop believing in Bible and/or God? I mean what evidence, what reasoning, what proof would be enough to leave religion? Could there be anything at all which can cause this?
This question, and of course many-many more, is what I’ve been thinking about lately. I try to be as open-minded as I can and for me open-mindedness also means that when I see that I do something wrong, or that something what I believe is wrong, or even when I see that fundamental principles on which I’ve based my life are wrong – I change it, Christians call it repentance. This is also what you do when you ‘come’ to church – you change your lifestyle, if it may be called like that, and start to follow Jesus (whatever version of it church preaches).
Since last week, when the word got out that I have doubts and stopped attending church services, I’ve been asked many-many times from from different people where did those doubts came from, what is it exactly that you doubt about, when did they start etc. When I tell where they came from – mostly reading material from Internet, what atheists ex-Christians and people from other religions think about Christianity, Bible and religion at all – I’ve got many answers that said something in lines of: “Yeah, I know, I’ve been reading such material too, but it was too destructive for my faith and I started to doubt about this myself, so I just stopped reading it. So I don’t have to doubt anymore.”
So I keep away from absolutely anything that even might oppose my faith, that might make me doubt. And even when I find some things to which I don’t know answers, or sound contrary to Bible, I dismiss them right away. Why? Because Bible is right and even when I don’t understand it it must be right, because I believe it is right! Why I believe it is right? Because Bible itself says it is correct, infallible Word of God. Can you detect circular logic here? I believe it is right, because it says it is right and I believe it. There is no way any outside information can come in and change that view.
Anyway, for me where was this ‘gap’, where outside info could come in and right now I’m in this doubting state, which I must deal with. I know to believers this is absolutely incomprehensible that someone, who has been a believer himself for so long (like me), might doubt the existence of God and that Bible is infallible and living Word of God. I know it because I’ve been there, done that and got the T-shirt.
To skip little bit of ahead in time to answers that might say: “There’s absolutely nothing that might change my mind about Bible and its correctness”. I want ask this – isn’t this just a little bit closed minded approach?
Arthur Koestler once pointed out, “Faith is a wondrous thing; it is not only capable of moving mountains, but also of making you believe that a herring is a race horse.”
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1.
bonnieq | September 10, 2006 at 21:43
“What proof would it take to leave religion?” For me, the Bible, God’s Holy Word. Religion and Christianity are two separate things: organized, denominational Christian religions represent Revelation’s great whore and her harlot daughters. God’s Truth will never come from their pulpits.
As Jesus said of them, “You are like white sepulcres, beautiful on the outside but full of dead men’s bones.” Then, He told us who would be speaking God’s Truth, “Babes [those not taught by man's seminaries] perfect praise in speaking God’s Truth.” And, He added, “If ye seek the Truth, come to me; for ye who are anointed have no need to be taught by any man.”
Like you, there was a time in my life when I became disillusioned with the denomintion to which I belonged. Thinking it was the particular denomination, I began visiting others; only to find it was the same. So, I took Christ at His word and went directly to the Lord seeking God’s Truth. Once I proved that I was sincere and wouldn’t not turn away, He sent the Holy Spirit to me and the rest is history.
On the other hand, nothing can turn me away from God or Christ or the Holy Bible taught me by the Holy Spirit. The Truth is in that awesome book but it must be studied as God said to study it and it must be done with the Holy Spirit. They have proven themselves to me so many times that there is no way I can deny them.
Visit my blog sometime– http://bonnieq.wordpress.com
Love in Christ,
BonnieQ
Truth Seekers and Speakers, link on blog page
Unicorn Haven, link on blog page
2.
hiie | September 11, 2006 at 9:57
There are two things that surprise and make me sad as well (re this last post of yours). Firstly, you assume that no believer would understand you (“I know to believers this is absolutely incomprehensible ..”). Maybe this is your latest impression when communicating with believers? But how can you make this generalization, that what you think is absolutely incomprehensible to other believers?
but I get the association as if someone, who has been married for 3-4, years wants to reveal some grand truths about marriage to people who have practiced marriage for 30 years.
Secondly, you seem to think you have lived as a Christian for quite a long time (“.. who has been a believer himself for so long (like me) ..”). Maybe I’m wrong
Actually, I believe this last one is not your intention – you don’t seem to be in an urgent need to convince the others. So, pardon me for this association. I want to be there for you always, no matter what state you’re in (be it the doubting state at the moment or some other in the future). Love, H.
3.
vilts | September 11, 2006 at 10:42
To Hiie:
. But how can I make this generalization? Simple. Because all who believe it, to them this is absolute truth. And if someone doubts my absolute truth, can’t it be then incomprehensible (I must think out new word for this, this is too long to type). Again, this is IMO.
Well, these things are in my opinion (this all blog thing is, just my (maybe not so humble) opinion). Why I think this might be incomprehensible? Because when I’ve been on the side of no doubt I couldn’t understand why people doubted Bible when I was there. This all is so clear, why don’t you want to accept it and all such generalizations. But yes, you’re correct that everyone is not like me and everybody doesn’t think like that. So I change that sentence to ‘might be incomprehensible’
Second point. Ok, I’ll rephrase – to me this is relatively long time for me to live as christian, 20% of my lifetime. But can you agree that someone who has been married for 3-4 years can give some good pointers to ‘veterans’, I don’t think I own any ‘grand truths’ about anything. How were some biggest discoveries in science made? By people who were total strangers to certain field and were told by ‘experts’ that this is impossible to achieve. Guess what? They did it anyway and it worked out. My point is that people who’ve been doing same thing for 30 years may not always be right about their field of expertise. Again, IMO
To BonnieQ:
Current problem for me is that the only reason why I became christian was Bible, I saw at the time that it was correct, infallible and living Word of God. But now that I doubt it, it also shakes my fundamental faith in it and in God. What if some things are not true what is written there? And if I accept that some things are not true, then which parts can I trust at all? I never quite understood this all Holy Spirit guidance thing very well. I believed that I did receive it at baptism, but how, when and why it worked, no idea. I, having reason oriented mind, find it hard to follow such vague (for me) thing.
4.
Inc | September 11, 2006 at 11:09
About reading.. Maby its little close minded to say that I will not read this or that because its affecting my faith. Yes it starts question, what kind of faith you have then? – and its rigth question.
I acted same way when I was young christian. (8 years later, I dont think I´m old christian) And I whas aware that my faith is not too strong.
But I´m sure about one thing – you are what you eat – you should now that when you run long distances :0)
I personali think that It´s not about reading its why you reading this or that.
I remember my first experiance with Bible. I started with Moses 1 chapter and I ended with this place where God greated woman. I had something personal with this thing, human is human, I didn´t like the way God greated woman. This isnt right I thought and I fling the Bible away wiht anger.
So after that I didnt read the Bible I think fiwe or more years.
Anyway I think always is better let out your doubts – in this you are in right track.
I only have to you one thought – all this what you read, inspect where is leaded this persons life….
Internet is funni thing, its like politicans, you can allways hear what you want……..
5.
Inc | September 11, 2006 at 11:44
in addition to..
I think its normal to have doubts, its humane. I like to be with people who hase doubts and for me are distant peoples who always now what they are doing.
I personaly feel, if you havnt doubt, you cant have genuine faith.
Think about Peter
…but there are on but…if you dont faight for you belive, to faind fhat you belive then you cant.
You cant win if you dont run….run Forrest, run…
…yes I have had lots of doubts and question to God…but I cant think living without Him, once I experienced it…this was scary. Sometimes its hard to understand God or understand the Bible, but world is so EMTY without God, so scary and so meaningless.
Sorry if this sounds like teadhing..or babbling but I want to mark this also….
There are always freedom to choos:
Ecclesiastes – (one of my favorite)
12:8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
“Everything is meaningless!”
11:9 Be happy, young man, while you are young,
and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth.
Follow the ways of your heart
and whatever your eyes see,
but know that for all these things
God will bring you to judgment.
12:1 Remember your Creator
in the days of your youth,
before the days of trouble come
and the years approach when you will say,
“I find no pleasure in them”-
…and also run a good marathon :0) , get well
6.
Inc | September 11, 2006 at 13:07
one more thing :0)
lets go back to your post – The ‘why’, part 2 June 12th, 2006
I liked the summary you made about Why?
But now you have to add there point 5 and maybe more…or how you think?
7.
vilts | September 11, 2006 at 13:28
To inc:
. But I don’t quite understand what you mean by adding 5th point to the ‘Why’ blog post? Which would it be?
To answer your comments I must plan special time for that
8.
Inc | September 11, 2006 at 17:33
you dont have to read it..yes its too long… :0)
9.
bonnieq | September 11, 2006 at 21:18
There are 3 posts on my blog that might help you with the doubts you have: “Grace: Times Seven” and “Faith Times Seven” and one about “How To Study God’s Word.” Each of these are wholly scriptural and provide Biblical information that will never come from denominational pulpits.
In one respect, doubt is good; especially if it causes us to turn to the Lord for His Truth: doubt man’s teachings, not God’s. As for the Holy Spirit, scripture states, “The Holy Spirit comes to those who obey.” Obey what? God’s Law “as given in the beginning.”
There is so much that the Christian denominations are not revealing to their members and it’s a shame, because it causes one of two things: 1) the people turn away from God and Christ altogether; or 2) the people are unprepared for Christ’s soon return. To not be prepared means being left behind dead “from the brightness of His coming.”
I am here for you at any time you feel you need me.
Love in Christ
BonnieQ
http://bonnieq.wordpress.com
10.
heiki | September 12, 2006 at 9:14
hello, man
also mark my words: feeling is NOT truth. i felt a few times not very good after my 10K in Tallinn, but i started my training run anyway every day and after 1 or 2 km i felt much better. so i can say i ran after that 125 km. i feel great and keep it going (did you know that Gerd Kanter trained last or one of recent periods of 52 weeks without any rest day?)…of course to do so you have to like to push things to the limit and you’ll find out amazing potential in yourself. perhaps this advice helps you also in your faith.
nice to see your blog and all those comments. i got many answers to my e-mail for you last week. anyway there are many words to say for discussion, but we can do that if we meet eye on eye…until then my advice for you: if you do not run for preparing for marathon then hold yourself back there…otherwise you’ll be even more sick afterwards
11.
hellu | September 12, 2006 at 14:52
Hebrews 11
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
12.
vilts | September 12, 2006 at 15:05
To hellu:
I know that scripture, but I don’t quite understand what you want to say with that in this context. Care to explain a little?
I mean that ’same’ faith is used by absolutely every religion in existance and everyone believes their is the correct one. Faith alone proves nothing, I think.
13.
hellu | September 13, 2006 at 10:17
well, i think it is what to you want to belive.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command
there is no physical avidence thet it is so. you just have to belive.
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
and now it is just you desision do you belive it or not. but it doesn’t change bible.
and you talk about being open minded. i don’t think you realy are open minded. you block God. you talk about things against God and bible. open minded person, i think, should although point out things that are not only aganst but althou suport. but, that is just my opinion.
14.
hiie | September 14, 2006 at 21:25
Regarding your question – what would it take for me to stop believing – I did not notice anyone actually answered it. Must be a tough one. Well, here’s my reply: if someone presented a solid evidence that there never was Jesus. This would probably shake my belief completely. As this has not happened in real life, I could only speculate, what would happen if …
15.
little one | September 28, 2006 at 11:59
what would it take to stop beliving?
when I would ask and get no answer
when I would seek and not find
when I would knock and the door would not open