So long, and Thanks for All the Fish
October 25, 2006
So, now it is done. As of last week I’m officially no longer a Christian anymore. I don’t read Bible, I don’t pray, I don’t evangelize, I don’t pay tithe and I don’t do lots of things anymore, which I used to do for 5 years. To use churchspeak – my name has been erased from the Book of Heaven.
I know this comes as a shock to many who know me and have thought of me as a ’strong disciple’, whatever that may mean.
But please, let me explain reasons behind this decision and thought processes that led me to this point. First of all let me say that this is not because of some unpardonable sin that I’ve committed – no, I didn’t kill anyone, I didn’t rob a bank, I’m still faithful to my dear wife, and lo, even my moral standards are the same. This same question has been asked quite a few times – did you do something awful? Reason for this is that uncountable people have left church because of some serious sin in their life. But let me repeat that again – I didn’t do anything such. I’d like that to be carved in your skull, so to speak.
Now, this has been cleared.
The reason for my leaving is very simple – total absence of faith in Bible and in the God it portrays. Simple, isn’t it? I previously wrote some posts about the questions that were unanswered for me about God. They still remain. There aren’t any responses that might answer them satisfyingly. When we had these ‘emergency talks’ to save my soul with church clergy people one of them even said that I’m never going to find answers to these questions, that somehow I’d have to get over them and live happily ever after. Well, I’m sorry, but I can’t do that. God of the Bible should be God of Order, God of Reason etc, how come there aren’t any answers to my questions?
Just for reference I write some questions that I think remain unanswered, no matter which mental gymnastics apologetics are trying to do. They are in no particular order.
- Problem of people. Supposedly God is absolutely perfect. Definition of absolute perfectness means that it doesn’t lack anything. Nada. Nothing. So, why does someone perfect need to create extra entities? Apologetics answer to this that He might love someone, offer His endless love to someone. (Critics think for His entertainment). But this raises further questions like, why then most people are sent to hell to suffer indescribable pain for ever and ever (this is the popular view of hell)? OK, leaving the reason of our creation behind. Here comes next problem. How can absolutely perfect being create something imperfect, like humans? Out of perfect can’t come anything imperfect. Impossible.
- Problem of evil. This has been, and still is, very hot topic for many-many discussions between believers and non-believers. Basically the question is – how come there is so much evil in the world, why doesn’t God prevent all of it? The answer usually has something to do with His unmeasurable love and giving us free will, which creates all this evil. Yes, this view might answer why there are so much wars, killings etc, but there is no way this can explain so called non-human evil. Sufferings that are not caused by people themselves, but by other forces. What has free will to do with natural disasters like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes or even birth defects? And please don’t tell me these things are that we could learn something… What do you learn from disaster where 200000 people die?
- Problem of Old Testament. It’s just unbelievable what God ordered his people to do, and what He did Himself. I won’t go into this very deeply, but if you’d really read OT without prejudice that ‘this must somehow be correct and who am I to question God’ you’d see very troubling things.
- Problem of many religions/movements. If God really is all-powerful, one and only, how in the world even two Christian movements can’t agree with their theology/behavior/view of God? What about Muslims, Hindus, Krishnas and other million religions out there? Everyone has their view of God. Shouldn’t there be at least some common points? Yes, it’s easy to say that other are religions made by people but ours is correct. Everyone says that. That doesn’t mean anything at all.
- Argument from design. So, I think now many want to say that, hey, look at this wonderful world. Don’t you think this is marvelous design by some supreme Creator (God of Bible, of course, who else)? Actually, no, I don’t think that way anymore. Think this way. If you were absolutely perfect and had infinite time in your hands, would you really create such ‘perfect’ world? I think there are countless things to improve.
- Nothing fails like prayer. Honestly, how many prayers have been answered that you’re sure can’t be coincidences? Actually, to think about it seriously then prayers are totally pointless, but I won’t go into this, I understand that this gives people hope.
But I’m sure I can write here 18 reasons, believers still believe and non-believers still… well, non-believe. Thing is – seeing is not believing, but believing is seeing. I fit the world to my world view, not vice versa. There is no way to prove that God exists, just as there is no way to prove he doesn’t exist. Why you don’t believe in elves, tooth-fairies, Santa Clause and all that gang? Because they’re not probable, they’re fantasy. But you can’t prove with certainty that wood-elves don’t exists. So I can make my wood-elf worship religion and nobody can tell me it’s wrong – I tell them to prove it!
So, this is shortly.
Please also understand that I have absolutely nothing against any of the people that are in church. I still consider them as my friends, and I hope it’s mutual. I also don’t think Christianity, at least in my ex-church, of course there are many bad examples too, is something stupid. I merely think this is, um, merely unreasonable.
42
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1.
Ivo | October 27, 2006 at 14:27
I understood you decision my good friend. But I’ am sate.
2.
hiie | October 29, 2006 at 9:43
Same here, my dear. Sad.
3.
Heiki | October 29, 2006 at 12:07
Answer to: Problem of people. Supposedly God is absolutely perfect. Definition of absolute perfectness means that it doesn’t lack anything. Nada. Nothing. So, why does someone perfect need to create extra entities? Apologetics answer to this that He might love someone, offer His endless love to someone. (Critics think for His entertainment). But this raises further questions like, why then most people are sent to hell to suffer indescribable pain for ever and ever (this is the popular view of hell)? OK, leaving the reason of our creation behind. Here comes next problem. How can absolutely perfect being create something imperfect, like humans? Out of perfect can’t come anything imperfect. Impossible.
I’m convinced you have one very weak point here. Isaiah 55:9 For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
Don’t you think that our logical thinking doesn’t work to explain or describe the things you’re trying to solve?
4.
Heiki | October 29, 2006 at 12:12
Answer to: Problem of evil. This has been, and still is, very hot topic for many-many discussions between believers and non-believers. Basically the question is – how come there is so much evil in the world, why doesn’t God prevent all of it? The answer usually has something to do with His unmeasurable love and giving us free will, which creates all this evil. Yes, this view might answer why there are so much wars, killings etc, but there is no way this can explain so called non-human evil. Sufferings that are not caused by people themselves, but by other forces. What has free will to do with natural disasters like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes or even birth defects? And please don’t tell me these things are that we could learn something… What do you learn from disaster where 200000 people die?
Don’t you think that Jesus saw that all with all of his wisdom and still was ready to go to the cross?
5.
Heiki | October 29, 2006 at 12:14
Answer to: Problem of Old Testament. It’s just unbelievable what God ordered his people to do, and what He did Himself. I won’t go into this very deeply, but if you’d really read OT without prejudice that ‘this must somehow be correct and who am I to question God’ you’d see very troubling things.
I suggest to be very careful to judge OT conseption…we are living in the NT time. Don’t you see difference?
6.
Heiki | October 29, 2006 at 12:15
Answer to: Problem of many religions/movements. If God really is all-powerful, one and only, how in the world even two Christian movements can’t agree with their theology/behavior/view of God? What about Muslims, Hindus, Krishnas and other million religions out there? Everyone has their view of God. Shouldn’t there be at least some common points? Yes, it’s easy to say that other are religions made by people but ours is correct. Everyone says that. That doesn’t mean anything at all.
Here again comes to play time then Jesus was on earth…this time had same differences between people like we have.
7.
Heiki | October 29, 2006 at 12:20
Answer to: Argument from design. So, I think now many want to say that, hey, look at this wonderful world. Don’t you think this is marvelous design by some supreme Creator (God of Bible, of course, who else)? Actually, no, I don’t think that way anymore. Think this way. If you were absolutely perfect and had infinite time in your hands, would you really create such ‘perfect’ world? I think there are countless things to improve.
I see you have different view about perfect design compared to God. But are you brave enough to take responsiblity if God allows you to make improvments? Do you think you know all aspects and details of God’s created universe? If you think this is not perfect, but there are many people who think so, why do you think you know better?
8.
Heiki | October 29, 2006 at 12:23
Answer to: Nothing fails like prayer. Honestly, how many prayers have been answered that you’re sure can’t be coincidences? Actually, to think about it seriously then prayers are totally pointless, but I won’t go into this, I understand that this gives people hope.
I learned about prayer that this is the tool i can use to communicate to God and not for getting things done. If you do not undertand then the prayer is answered, doesn’t mean that it is not.
9.
Heiki | October 29, 2006 at 12:29
Answer to: Why you don’t believe in elves, tooth-fairies, Santa Clause and all that gang?
Why do you think i do not believe those things? I see my son is growing and know he is thinking about such things diffrently than i am, but it doesn’t mean i do not believe them. Question here should be: are they higher or more important than God?
10.
vilts | October 29, 2006 at 12:37
I’m convinced you have one very weak point here. Isaiah 55:9 or just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. Don’t you think that our logical thinking doesn’t work to explain or describe the things you’re trying to solve?
The thing is, you can’t use that logic very well. I mean that ‘His ways are higher than mine’, because with that you can explain absolutely everything we don’t understand. You know, I actually think that people were created by Flying Spaghetti Monster orbiting Earth around 200 years ago. Why doesn’t nobody believe it? Because His ways are higher than mine, there is no way my logic can comprehend such high mind as His… You see where this can go?
But still, I believe that the point remains – you are certain of what you believe (and nobody could convice you otherwise), yogas think this world, all matter, and life is actually created by Krsna, not by Tetragrammaton (nice word, isn’t it). Again nobody can ever convice them otherwise. Atheists believe there is no God, and there is no way you could prove otherwise. Everyone sees what they believe and ‘adjust’ the world according to that view. If you think that payer is a way to communicate and ‘not to get things done’, then why Bible says whatevery you ask in my name will be done, what’s the point in that? Again, if you believe it, you believe it. Nothing can prove you wrong, or right. Let’s say this is your subjective reality.
11.
vilts | October 29, 2006 at 12:47
“Why do you think i do not believe those things?”
Um, so you do believe in them? Wow
“I suggest to be very careful to judge OT conseption…we are living in the NT time. Don’t you see difference?”
I am trying to be careful, yet, is it better to be silent or speak out? I chose to speak out my difficulties in believing this stuff. Regarding OT and NT. Yes, I know we live in NT times. But isn’t God by definition never-changing? So what we see in OT is who God is (not was). And yes, I am aware of explanations why things are in OT the way they are. Sorry, I’m not convinced.
12.
Heiki | October 29, 2006 at 15:33
Am i wrong if i say: you are out because you want to be out and you are not willing to change? Sorry, but i do not understand where your hope to live coming from or where is your hope in? Is it your reasonable mind? Don’t you feel being alone? What are you truly looking for?
13.
vilts | October 29, 2006 at 21:41
I think you are only partly wrong. It’s true that I want to be out, but not because I don’t want to change, but because I don’t believe in being ‘in’ anymore. My willingness to change has not changed, there are many areas where I want to improve myself – mind, body and spirit.
But can I ask if it is reasonable to do something because I just feel something? Like I feel lonely? (Ok, this is kind of rhetorical question actually).
And truly I’m looking for truth.
14.
Heiki | October 29, 2006 at 22:51
Ok then i hope you will find it before it’s too late.
15.
Kristel | October 30, 2006 at 11:45
Hei,
kuna ainult keegi bonnieq on siin kommenteerijatest vist mitte-eestlane, siis kirjutan (sorry, bonnieq) emakeeles.
Esiteks ei ole Täiuslikul kohustust luua ainult täiuslikku. Jah ,ta võib seda luua, (nagu ta lõi Jeesuse) aga ta võib luua mida iganes. See ei tähenda, et Tema plaan ei ole täiuslik. Kas pole mitte raskem ja põnevam luua selline plaan, mille tegelased on ebatäiuslikud, kuid mis ise on täiuslik ja mille täitudes ebatäiuslik saab täiuslikuks.
16.
Kristel | October 30, 2006 at 11:53
Kurjuse koha pealt: surm on niikui nii kuri, kas ta tuleb katastroofi, katku, terrori või lihtsalt üksildase ja kurva vananemise näol. Sellest ei ole mitte kellelgi pääsu, teame me kõik.
Kui inimese lootus on siinses maailmas, siis on igasugune surm asi, mida kardetakse põhjusega kõige rohkem.
17.
Kristel | October 30, 2006 at 12:04
See surma teema haakub vägagi VT-ga. Üks asi, millest ma aga täielikult VT aru ei saa, on see, et kuidas jumalakartlikud inimesed said teise rahva (kuidas üks inimene sai teise) silmagi pilgutamata ära tappa. Kuidas nad edasi elasid ja kas see neile raske ei olnud.
18.
Kristel | October 30, 2006 at 13:03
Tavaliselt need, keda religioonide rohkus ja värvikus väga häirib, ei vali sealt seast ise mitte ühtegi välja, mille järgi elada. Jäävadki laperdama selle suure segaduse tuultesse. Võiks ju kõik ka läbi proovida, et süda rahule jääks. Samas jääb ühe inimelu pikkusest kõigi põhjalikumaks proovimiseks väheks.
19.
Kristel | October 30, 2006 at 13:21
Kas Sinu suhte mõte Hiiega seisneb selles, et ta on erinevalt Jumalast vastanud kõikidele su palvetele ja täitnud su välja ütlemata soovegi?
Mis on sinu jaoks suhtlemise mõte ?
Soovin põnevaid, pingsaid ja tulemusrikkaid mõtisklus- ja vestlusaegu Sulle nendel teemadel, mis Sul südamel.
20.
Inc | October 30, 2006 at 16:55
Kuna ka Vilts on palju vanast testamendist eelnevalt rääkinud ja Jumala julmusest jne.
Ajaloolisi filme oleme me kõik vaadanud.
Olid ajad kui mõõga ja kirvega ringi jalutamine oli normaalne ja ka hädavajalik – ma mõistan ainult üht, seda et kui väga ka ma ei pingutaks on mul väga raske aru saada, mis tol ajal toimus ja milline oli inimeste mõtlemine.
Meie pühime siin lapiga kapi pealt tolmu võtame külmikust mingit pakendatud toitu ja vaatame telekast, et oi kui kole, kuskil on sõda. Pole ime, et vana testamendi asjad tunduvad meile karmid…aga mõtle sellele, et tol ajal elamine oli märksa karmim ja mitte võitlemine tähendas enamasti luba ennast maha lüüa….Rahvastiku registri, politsei, munitsipaalpolitsei ja muu sellisega oli tol ajal ikka lugu kehvasti :0)
21.
Inc | October 30, 2006 at 17:09
Aga jah Vilts kahju muidugi et saa nii oled otsustanud aga mis teha.
Ma võtaks veel jultumuse sulle virutada mõne Piiblikohaga (sinul muidugi õigus mitte lugeda :0)
Õp 21:2 „All a man’s ways seem right to him, but the LORD weighs the heart.”
Õp 20:24 „A man’s steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?”
Õp 16:25 „There is a way that seems right to a man,
but in the end it leads to death.”
Igal juhul soovin sulle edu vaimsetes otsingutes.
22.
Inc | October 30, 2006 at 17:13
Problem of evil. – väga lihtne vastata – kõike neid ülemaailmseid katastroofe on põhjustanud inimtegevus maa peal.
Täpsemalt öeldes materjalistlik ja mugavusele suunatud elu, millest ei olda valmis loobuba enne, kui on juba hilja. Sellest on palju artikleid internetis ja uuringuid viimasel ajal tehtud.
Ma ei tea kes kõik neid uuringuid teinud on , kuid üks on kindel, ükski neist uuringutest ei ütle, et Jumal on süüdi katastroofides ja sõdades.
23.
Inc | October 30, 2006 at 17:17
Problem of Old Testament.
Püüa elada seal ajastikuks…kahjuks pole see tehniliselt võimalik…seega ei ole just lihtne sellest ka aru saada.
Laiemalt võttes ..arvestades, et sa ei usu niiguinii Jumalat…oled sa sunnitud mõtlema, kuidas olid küll inimesed tol ajal nii julmad…..kas see on muutunud.
Nagu üks vana hea meelejahutaja saade ütles…ajad muutuvad aga inimesed on ikka need samad.
Kas sina või mina oleme paremad neist kes elasid tollel ajal? … ma ei tea
24.
Inc | October 30, 2006 at 17:19
Problem of many religions/movements.
jälle kord sa niiguinii ei usu, siis unusta religjoon ära
Mõtle- nii palju on erienvaid tõdesid maailmas. Filosoofiad, veendumused, teooriad – kõik ei ole õiged, see on selge kõigile aga ikkagi sa pead tegema otsused ja leidma selle õige vastuse.
25.
Inc | October 30, 2006 at 17:22
Argument from design.
I really love this! Really!
Miks? Sellepärast, et see näitab millised äpud me ole. Sajandeid on vajeldud ja tõestatud maailma olemust.
Pole vahet religioon või teadus – miski ei lükka ümber seda paratamatust et meie aju maht on selleks kõigeks liiga väike.
26.
Inc | October 30, 2006 at 17:29
Nothing fails like prayer.
Mõned usuvad saatusesse, mõned tähtedesse, talismanidesse jne
Mmm samuti võiksin vastu küsida, kui palju on sul olnud juhtumeid kus oled saavutanud midagi, mida oled väga tahtnud ja sa ei suuda tõestada, et see pole juhus?
Jah sa tegid kõvasti trenni, et minna maratonile, jah sa sõid õigeid asju, jõid õigeid asju, puhkasid õigel ajal.
Mida sa tegid aga selleks, et olla 100% kindel et sa mingit tõve külge ei saanud või mis iganes kujultetav probleeb ette ei sattuks.
Ütle mis sa ütled aga usklik või mitte, fakt on see, et me väga ikka ei kontrolli kõike toimuvat 100%.
27.
Inc | October 30, 2006 at 17:31
ok, näe jälle läks paljuks, sorry.
Igas tahes ole siis tubli ja anna teada, millal jälle maratoni lähed jooksma.
28.
johannes | November 4, 2006 at 22:12
wow
29.
Ilona | November 17, 2006 at 0:28
Iga asja jaoks on oma aeg. Ju Sinul (teil) on selline aeg praegu.
KAS MITTEKRISTLASED VÕIVAD PÄÄSEDA?
Traditsiooniliselt on katoliiklased õpetanud, et kirik on pääsemiseks hädavajalik. See uskumus rajaneb nii pühakirja kui ka kirikupärimuse õpetusel. Me usume, et Jeesus on kohalolev oma ihus, kirikus, ning et ta on ainus Vahendaja ja ainus tee pääsemisele.
… sest taeva all ei ole antud inimestele ühtegi teist nime, kelle läbi meid päästetaks. (Ap 4:12)
Alates Issanda taevasseminemisest ning tema aussetõstmisest Isa juurde võib teda maa peal kohata nähtaval kujul ainult tema ihu, kiriku kaudu. Kui inimesed otsivad õndsust, siis jõuavad nad Kristuseni ja tema ihu liikmeks olemiseni. Kirik on Jumala armastuse märk, sakrament. Selle ülesanne on anda tunnistust Jumala armastuse müsteeriumist ja lunastusest inimkonna ajaloos Jeesus Kristuse läbi. Selle ülesanne on näidata teistele teed Jeesuse juurde.
Pealegi õpetas Jeesus ise vajadust usu ja ristimise järele (Jh 3:5). Järelikult õpetab kirik, et need, kes teadsid, “et katoliku kirik on rajatud vajalikuna Jumala poolt Jeesus Kristuse kaudu, [ja] keeldusid sinna astumast või sinna jäämast, ei saa pääseda” (Dogmaatiline konstitutsioon kirikust – Lumen Gentium?, 14).
Kuidas on siis lood nende paljude inimestega, kes pole Jeesus Kristusest iialgi kuulnud? Mis saab neist, kellel on tekkinud temast moonutatud ettekujutus kristlaste tõttu, kes ei elanud kogu aeg selle järgi, mida nad kuulutasid? Kas need inimesed võivad pääseda? Kiriku vastus on jah.
Ka need võivad pälvida igavese õndsuse, kes omapoolse süüta ei tunne Kristuse evangeeliumi ega Tema Kirikut, ent siiralt otsivad Jumalat ning armu mõjul püüavad oma tegudes täita Tema tahet nii, nagu see on neile teada südametunnistuse hääle kaudu. Samuti ei keela jumalik Ettehooldus õndsuseks vajalikku abi neile, kes omapoolse süüta ei ole veel otseselt Jumalat tundma õppinud, kuid kes püüavad elada õiget elu tänu Tema armule. Kirik vaatleb igasugust nende seas leiduvat headust ja tõde kui ettevalmistust evangeeliumiks. Kirik käsitleb neid omadusi antuna Tema poolt, kes valgustab kõiki inimesi, et neil viimselt oleks elu (Dogmaatiline konstitutsioon kirikust, 16).
Seega on Jumala riiki kaasatud need, kes lähenevad sellele imepärasel viisil Püha Vaimu toimimise läbi nende eludes. Nende ülesanne on otsida Jumala riiki, nõnda nagu nemad seda aimavad. Nende kutsumus on elada nii suures armastuses, kui neil võimalik.
Jumal on armastus
ja kes püsib armastuses, püsib Jumalas
ja Jumal püsib temas. (1Jh 4:16)
See siin on lõik pikemast jutust:
http://www.katoliku.ee/katekismus/see-on-meie-usk/seitsmes-peatukk.html